[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Vivir Latino and Destiny Lopez, la vaga inez. la vaga inez said: #mississippi has always been pretty EFFEDUP no? http://fb.me/HjHCfocu via @vivirlatino. speaking Chatino to herchild made her unfit mother?! [...]

Janet,

Have you ever visited this site before or have any idea who I am?

I find it curious that because of the position I take, you make assumptions about who I am.

I am here because I was born here. My parents were not born here but they were born U.S. citizens (hint: they weren’t born in Mexico either because gasp not all Latinos are Mexicans).

That said do you know anything about Mexican history? How about NAFTA? The Merida Initiative? Do you have any insights as to how those things have contributed to the poverty and corruption in Mexico?

I don’t dislike the U.S., I was born and raised here. I dislike the policies of the U.S. government.

And let’s bring it back to the post….do you think the way Cirila Baltazar Cruz and her daughter were treated is ok?

hmm that’s a good question. She isn’t named in the lawsuit as an individual.

I was reacting to your comments on anchor babies and rhetoric relating to them.

To answer your question, assuming that this description of what happened to Cirila is correct, it was completely outrageous and indefensible. (Are we sure that it is correct? There are few concrete details in what you posted, which makes me wonder.)

More generally, it is very true that illegal immigrants are often cruelly exploited. This is yet another reason we should properly seal the border and punish employers who hire illegal immigrants.

I am sure that many immigrants are desperate. There are several billion people who live in countries even poorer than Mexico, and they would desperately like to come here too.

To remain a high-functioning first-world country, we need immigrants with excellent 21st century skills. And we do not need people who will become a burden on our social services. Unfortunately, the statistics show that immigrants from Mexico very rarely bring higher education, and very often become a burden (at least by the second generation and on–which is what matters in the long run).

I cannot imagine any moral universe in which people, merely because they are poor, have some moral entitlement to violate the laws of a neighboring country, and then become dependent on the tax-paying citizens of this neighboring country. I feel sorry for poor people everywhere, but this is *outrageous*.

Finally, if you really care about Mexico, you should ask why it is such a poor excuse for a country (I speak economically and governmentally–not culturally-I like many things about Mexico). The answer seems to me to come down to *corruption*. This is why the economy does not develop properly there and why all these poor people feel inclined to leave. Work on that problem!

Janet,

I’m also very skeptical of this claim: “Unfortunately, the statistics show that immigrants from Mexico… and very often become a burden (at least by the second generation and on–which is what matters in the long run)”

Now, statistics in this regard are impossible to quote from so authoritatively, given that those collecting the information always, even if not consciously, skew them to their purpose.

Simply put, the burden/benefit analysis is not a straightforward plus or minus, much like any complex issue. The problem is when people, such as yourself and irresponsible politicians, cite to inherently unreliable information which then has a real, concrete negative effect on humans’ lives, be they undocumented or not.

As for this on Mexico: “The answer seems to me to come down to *corruption*”, you jump to a conclusion, again, on a complex issue. Corruption exists in the U.S. as well, yet the levels of poverty here are not as in Mexico.

There is no one “reason” for why Mexico is what it is. It’s a long history, with several factors, including U.S. and Mexico government policies, as well as its very different colonial history.

One thing I do know for sure: Mexico has the best presidential quote, from Benito Juarez: “Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz” “Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace”

Reading Janet’s posts reminds me how little most people know about US foreign policy in Mexico. It’s no accident that immigration skyrocketed after NAFTA was passed, as NAFTA deals with the movement of goods and LABOR. NAFTA has worsened the conditions in Mexico by putting local farmers out of buisness, creating miquiladora factories, and by allowing US companies to pollute the air, soil and groundwater in Mexico. (Read “Boss Hog,” Rolling Stone Magazine). Ciudad Juarez became a killing field after NAFTA passed.

I won’t even get into the War on Drugs and Plan Mexico, which have led to the death of 30,000 Mexicans since 2006. These policies are meant to stifle indigenous communities and anybody else who objects to the political and economic oppression that comes with NAFTA and globalism. Mexicans elected a liberal in 2006 who was blocked from taking office, and the corproations want to make sure that no liberal wins again.

If people want things to change, then please call your representatives and tell them to repeal NAFTA and Plan Mexico and end the War on Drugs.

http://www.indypendent.org/2008/06/06/congress-approves-plan-mexico/

Karen, I agree with you about the war on drugs–US demand for drugs and our efforts to fight that are a serious contributor to the problems of Latin America. I wish I knew of a solution; perhaps legalizing drugs would help, but it would bring with it a great wave of human tragedy of a different kind.

As to free trade, I am no great enthusiast, but the topic is very complicated and anyone who thinks it is simply harmful, period, has probably taken no economics courses (most economists believe that the great reduction in poverty which has occurred worldwide in the past 40 years–and there has been such a reduction–is largely due to more free trade). Economists are like doctors: they probably know a lot less than they think, but more than the rest of us, and we have to rely on them, for better or worse–simply dismissing views that they hold by consensus is probably naive and dangerous.

Maegan, you say I “just” applauded Mexico’s art and cuisine. To me, these are no small thing! Great art remains after dictators, kleptocrats, and “social justice movements” are long gone. (By social justice movements do you mean nice folk like Hugo Chavez?)

Bryan, you noted I had provided no references to the claim that Latin-American immigrants have extremely high intergenerational reliance on US welfare programs; good point–this page has lots of data:

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=1619_0_2_0

cheers…

Janet

also, janet, it is a tremendous disservice to yourself and the US to position the US as the big hero standing tall against drug abuse and violence. that position assumes, exactly as you did, that the real problem is one of “drug user/abuse versus clean healthy people.” And it assumes that the only thing to stop the situation is then “legalize drugs.” When you look at who is getting the military arsenal and how it is being used you see that it’s really a situation of “control of resources” and “government versus indigenous peoples.” and that calls for entirely and radically different answers to the problem than “continue sending military OR watch everybody descend into a slow inferno of drugged out hell.”

MACHA!!!!!

Janet you realize that Chavez is in Venezuela and not in Mexico right?

ha! i missed an interesting conversation. Janet, not that this fact proves anything, but just so you know I (and my husbad another immigrant) are both college educated, and brought most of our knowledge and skills from our home countries. But I do have family thant are immigrants who are not college educated and who probably contribute to the economy *and to the culture* of the US as much or more than you and yours.

What they put this woman in through is a complete outrage, but not really surprising and pretending it’s discrimination against latinos is naive. Our family law systems are out of control all over the country. Parental rights have been massively eroded across the board and children are taken away from fit parents all the time. “Child experts” congratulate themselves on how we’ve divorced ourselves from barbaric concepts such as parent’s rights and say we should focus on the “best interests of the child” which is about as subjective an idea as can be imagined. At the current rate wealthy people will soon be able to go into poor neighborhoods, snatch a kid, hide out for a year or so and argue the child has bonded with the them, would be traumatized to be separated and that they can provide a better life.

Incidentally I know of a similar story (actually many) but one that is particularly similar about a family from Honduras that immigrated here. While 9 months pregnant the mother brought in her 1 year old daughter for diaper rash, which she called “pañelitis” (an uncommon but valid name for it) The hospital translator mis-translated it as “scalding.” Long story short, the mother went into labor, child and family services stepped in and took the newborn and the toddler as the result of a mis-translated word. Affluent foster parents wanted to adopt, biological parents had to jump through hoops for two years to get their kids back and then just barely (after which they promptly fled the country.)

Carlos, that’s a horrible story about the Honduran child but not a surprising one. It is why I think some immigrant familias do not trust and utilize much of the medical establishment especially the public health system.

As for the child abduction in Mexico, well that’s a different context no.

That’s not what I said so please do not twist my words.

All I said was that I felt that was a little bit of a different situation, specifically because of the way that race, ethnicity, sexism and language plays into how various U.S. authorities determine what children are taken away from their parents.

no as in no? in Spanish..as in a question acknowledging the difference in power.

I am a parent, I have children.

Please feel free to inform/direct me to some cases/info.

This is actually where I feared where you were going, finding some way to justify the criminalization of a specific population of an entire state, in this case Arizona because of a crime statistic that implicates “Mexicans against Mexicans” and then tying it into the “illegal problem”. I smelled it coming.

Its like those who advocate increased police interaction in “inner city” neighborhoods because of “black on black” crime or “black on brown” crime, as we have been seeing more of recently.

I was just on a press call with DHS Janet Napolitano yesterday that says that they are increasing exit checks. Does that make you feel better somewhat?

I am not looking for more police or militarized solution to solve any problem and it’s not because I am a pacifist, it is because of the inherent bias in these systems in the U.S. against so many people.

Agregando un poco a lo anterior. En cuando quieras hablar del racismo y injusticia que enfrentan Mexicanos en EE.UU, hay que tomar en cuenta el gusto que le da cualquier oficial de México chingar “un gringo imperialista.” Because of course, screwing a Hispanic American that the US government already screwed by not supporting is still screwing an American.

Mexico’s willingness to discrimínate against Americans and America certainly makes for some strange bedfellows between people like me and racist pigs on the opposite end of the spectrum like that Sheriff Joe (I wish someone would kidnap him to Mexico.) As in most conflicts, there is right and wrong on both sides. I’d like to think acknowledging and addressing legitimate concerns about Mexico and our insecure border takes the wind out of the sails of the racist ideologues on the other side but, given the level of political discourse in this country, maybe you’re right. Maybe we, as Latinos, should continue to sweep such concerns under the rug for the “greater good.” Some truths really are inconvenient.

Carlos, it is only inconvenient to you because of my unwillingness to follow along with your flawed logic and game.

Mmmm kool-aid.

“Also, I’ve thought and tried to be nice and civil in debating with anti-immigrant types in the past, but its absolutely futile–they’ve a strict agenda bolstered by deep, underlying animus towards immigrants(OMG, THEY committed a MISDEMEANOR, SO HEINOUS A CRIME ITS FOREVER UNFORGIVEABLE) And that’s not an exaggeration, it’s spot-on.”

I can’t argue with that. Admiitedly, using the 600,000 “illegal entries” per year could reasonably have given the impression that my concern was one of illegal immigration rather than simply one of immigration from Mexico (illegal AND illegal) and an insecure Mexican border. Mexicans who enter legally are just as likely, and just as supported, in using the Mexican border as avenue for evading justice.

Going back the original article though, and your point on Missisipi racism, it certainly played a role, but it was not the defining one (in my opinion.) The critical question is one of exploiting citizens who have no voice. In this case the mother in question quite literally had no voice at all as the direct result of not speaking a well-known language, having what was quite probably dubious immigration status and no financing or connections to enlicit advocacy on her behalf… a “perfect victim” if you will.

Questions of family law (international and domestic) have been a focus of mine for some time now. Calling this a simple example of racism is an oversimplification (though not outright incorrect.) There are a number perverse federal and state incentives for terminating parental rights. It’s actually frighteningly common and it happens to disaffected and marginalized groups across the country (even white ones.)

There’s an excellent Flickr photostream dedicated to what it terms “Government Child Kidnapping” and is a compelling combination of photos and text that goes a long towards illustrating the concepts I’m referring to (in terms of the original article)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42981430@N05/sets/72157623298812100/

So Carlos, you are against all Mexican immigration then? You just don’t like/trust Mexicans. Admit it instead of veiling it under compassion for children.

Listen, in the spirit of burying the hatchet (and not into anyone) I have to admit that I’ve not really done a very good job of assuming good faith on your part. Not that you’ve afforded me that privelege either, but I have the benefit of being able to look at your whole blog.whereas you can only take my posts at face value where they could be some random internet discontent or troll. I’m not even sure how I came across this blog entry. I’ve never heard of it, or you, before. I have google alerts for all sorts of queries related to child abduction and sometimes waste hours w/ free-form queries on the same subject. I’ve been reading your blog and respect a lot of what you are writing about and stand for even if we clearly disagree on some things (the US-Mexico border being one of them.) I don’t want to get pulled into a war of words with someone whose ideas I mostly respect. I spend too much time debating idiots online and my first reaction is to flame people — more often than I should sometimes, but at least I can admit to it when I do it.

I know how important it is to get the last word so I’ll let you have it. Feel free to call me a racist, sexist, pedophile whose searching online for children to abuse. I won’t waste space on your blog anymore or disrupt it with posts about justice in Mexico.

You know what, I changed my mind. I didn’t want a battle of wits with you because you are unarmed, but now you’ve actually pissed me off. It is clear you are all about identity politics and your use of “privilege” in this context is all about the fact that you define yourself and every relationship in the world in terms of oppressed and oppressor. You probably feel like you’ve been discriminated against as a “mother,” “hispanic” and ‘women” when in reality affirmative action and flouting of your victimhood is probably the primary source of every piece of success you’ve had in life. At the end of the day I’m sure you like to climb up on a cross and wallow about how “oppressed” you’ve been by “elite whites” and “privileged men” and how you’ve been denied all the success that your “brilliance” deserves. Let me spell it out to you in terms that a 2 year old can understand since you insist on projecting all sorts of bigotry and small-mindedness on me:

I said it once already, but since you only read to argue I’m sure you missed it:

“Perhaps they [exit checks] would have prevented the abduction of my son across the Arizona border near Nogales.”

I have an ABDUCTED son. Now I know normally in your standard mode of thinking and fixating on identity politics and victimhood that would mean a lot, but you won’t be able to relate to that aspect with me because that would mean admitting that you were actually wrong, something you are clearly incapable of.

I mention my wife’s immigration status and documentation not for “elitist,” and “privileged” reasons but because people say that abductors are justified in keeping the abducted children in Mexico because they lack the documentation to come back to the US if the children are returned and I wanted to circumvent that argument before it started, but since I disagreed with you I must have some small-minded character flaw and you will persist to look for it in me indefinitely rather than just look in the mirror. I am not with my wife. Since I have an abducted son we are pretty clearly separated. She ran off with another man and took our son to Mexico in contravention of State, Federal and International law. I have litigated through seven trials against her in Mexico over the past two and half years. A fight unlike anything you’ve ever done or likely ever will. I am an expert on the subject because it is my life. Not because I’m “racist”, “don’t like/trust Mexicans,” “drip privilege” or any of your other bull-shit arguments.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=1104316&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US

No, no insults, just:

“flawed logic and game”

“You just don’t like/trust Mexicans. Admit it instead of veiling it under compassion for children.”

“drips with privilege.”

Ojala que nunca tendras la oportunidad de disfrutar del “privilegio” mio.

Wow.. what a thread. Guess you don’t follow child abduction cases much do you? Do you know who Sage’s father is? Besides being a very vocal LBP, he’s been to Congress to talk to US Senators and Congressman on the issue, worked with, and helped, many other parents of abducted children around the world and is a forum moderator at the site Bring Sean Home for children abducted internationally… and probably a bunch of other things I have no idea about… I met him in DC at a rally and later at a hearing before the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission of Congress… he also helped my sister write a letter to the USDOJ for her abducted children in Mexico.

I guess here he’s just a racist, anti-Mexican… Really great site btw..

Mexico IS widely recognized as a haven for abducted children.. at least amongst people who pay attention to such things.

Here’s an article from yesterday:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wM1lqFJHvdoJ:www.abqjournal.com/upfront/03227486825upfront09-03-10.htm+%22Jennifer+Aguilera-Hurtado%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Looks like pretty much exactly the same as what happened to Cirila.. the only really surprising thing about the story is that it made the news.. This happens so much that it usually doesn’t.

ciao,
Julieta

Why can’t both stories be sad? There are a lot of differences – the mother in your story didn’t have the language barrier issue Cirila had, for one. And even though she is still missing her little 3 year old, as well as an 8 year old, Cirila had a baby taken from her right after the baby was born and missed the whole first year of her life.

Also in the story you mentioned there was a father, Cirila was said to be a single mom. My mom is a teacher, and there have been enough cases where a parent has abducted a kid they didn’t have custody of (where both parents were citizens) that my mom has to know all the details of every kid’s cutody situation and a kid can’t just be pulled out of school anymore by the non-custodial parent. Custody is tricky, made trickier by international rules, I’m sure someone who is actually a mom that has dealt with that situation could say more, but it seems to me that you can add to the story you linked relationship and custody issues, which isn’t the case with Cirila.

[...] Maegan La Mala: I think both stories are incredibly sad. There is no denying that. [...] [...]